Krishnamurti
After this morning, as an outsider, you have left me completely empty, completely without any future, without any past, without any image. So where am I?
Shainberg
That's right, somebody said that was watching us this morning, or one of the people around here said, 'How am I going to get out of bed in the morning?'
Bohm
Oh, yes.
Krishnamurti
No, I think that is fairly easy - that question of getting out of bed in the morning - it's fairly simple. Because I have to get up and do things, as life demands that I act, not just stay in bed for the rest of my life. You see, I have been left as an outsider who is viewing all this, who is listening to all this, with a sense of... 'blank wall'. A sense of - I understand what you have said very... because it has been made very clear to me. I have, at one glance, I have rejected all the systems, all the gurus - the Zen Buddhism, this Buddhism, this meditation, that meditation and so on - I've discarded all that because I have understood the meditator is the meditation. But I haven't still... feel, have I solved my problem of sorrow, do I know what it means to love? Do I understand what is compassion? Live - not understand, intellectually I can spin a lot of words, but at the end of all this, these dialogues, after discussing with you all, listening to you all, have I this sense of astonishing energy which is compassion, the end of my sorrow, do I know what it means to love somebody, love human beings?
Shainberg
Actually love.
Krishnamurti
Actually, actually.
Shainberg
Not talk about it.
Krishnamurti
No, no. That's all... I've gone beyond all that. And you haven't shown me what death is.
Bohm
Yes.
Krishnamurti
I haven't understood a thing about death. You haven't talked to me about it.
Bohm
OK. Could we begin on the question of death.
Krishnamurti
Yes. Let's begin on death.
Bohm
Now the one point occurred to me, you know we discussed in the morning, saying that we had come to the point where when we see the observer is the observed then that is death, essentially, is what you said. Right?
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Bohm
Now, this raises a question, you know, if the self is nothing but an image - right? - then what is it that dies? You see if the image dies that's nothing - right? - that's not death.
Krishnamurti
No, that's right.
Bohm
So is there something real that dies?
Krishnamurti
There is biological death.
Bohm
Well, we're not discussing that at the moment.
Krishnamurti
No.
Bohm
I mean you were discussing some kind of death.
Krishnamurti
I was discussing, when we were talking this morning, I was trying to point out if there is no image at all...
Bohm
Yes
Krishnamurti
...if there is no variety of images in my consciousness, I am dead, there is death!
Bohm
Well, that's the point that's not clear. What is it that has died? You see death implies something has died.
Krishnamurti
Died? The images have died, 'me' has... 'me' is dead.
Bohm
But is that something... is that a genuine death in the sense that...
Krishnamurti
Ah, that's what I want to... of course - that's what I want to... is it a verbal comprehension?
Bohm
Yes. Or more deeply is there something that has to die? You see, I'm trying to say, something real.
Shainberg
Some thing.
Bohm
In other words, if an organism dies, I say, I see that, up to a point, something real has died, you see.
Krishnamurti
Yes, something real has died.
Bohm
Now but when the self dies...
Krishnamurti
Ah, but I have accepted so far, the self has been an astonishingly real thing.
Bohm
Yes.
Krishnamurti
You come along - you three come along - and tell me that that image is fictitious, and I understand it, and I'm a little frightened that when that dies, when there is no image - you follow? - there is an ending to something.
Bohm
Yes, well, what is it that ends?
Krishnamurti
Ah, quite! What's it that ends.
Bohm
Because is it something real that ends? Or you see, you could say an ending of an image is no ending at all, right?
Krishnamurti
At all. What?
Bohm
If it's only an image that ends, that's an image of ending. I mean, I'm trying to say that nothing much ends if it's only an image.
Krishnamurti
Yes, that's what I want to get at.
Bohm
Is that... You know what I mean?
Krishnamurti
If it is merely an ending of an image...
Shainberg
Right, then there is nothing much.
Krishnamurti
There is nothing.
Bohm
No, it's like turning off the television set.
Krishnamurti
Turning... Yes, that leaves me nothing.
Shainberg
Right. Is that... (inaudible) what death is?
Bohm
Is that what death is, or is there something deeper that dies?
Krishnamurti
Oh, very much deeper.
Bohm
Something deeper dies.
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Shainberg
Well, how about the image-making process?
Krishnamurti
No, no. I would say it is not the end of the image which is death, but something much deeper than that. B But it's still not the death of the organism you see.
Krishnamurti
Still not the death of organism, of course, the organism...
Krishnamurti
Up to a point, yes. Till it's diseased, accident, old age, or senility and so on. But death: is it the ending of the image, which is fairly simple and fairly, you know, acceptable and normal, but...
Bohm
Right.
Krishnamurti
...but logically, or even actually. But it is like, you know, a very shallow pool. You have taken away the little water and there is nothing but mud left behind. There is nothing. So is there something much more?
Shainberg
That dies?
Krishnamurti
No. Not that dies, but the meaning of death.
Shainberg
Well, is there something more than the image that dies, or does death have a meaning beyond the death of the image?
Krishnamurti
Of course, that's what we are asking.
Shainberg
That's the question.
Krishnamurti
That's what we are asking.
Shainberg
Is there something about death that is bigger than the death of the image?
Bohm
Yes.
Krishnamurti
Of course. Obviously. It must be.
Bohm
Will this include the death of the organism, this meaning?
Krishnamurti
Yes. The death of the organism might go on - I mean the organism might go on, but eventually come to an end.
Bohm
Yes. But if we were to see what death means as a whole, universally, then we would also see what the death of the organism means, right?
Krishnamurti
Yes, yes.
Bohm
And is there some meaning also to the death of the self image, the same meaning?
Krishnamurti
That's only, I should say, that's only a very small part.
Bohm
That's very small.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
That's a very, very small part.
Bohm
But then, is there, say, one could think there might be the death of the self-image, then there might be a process or a structure beyond the self-image that might die, and that creates the self-image.
Krishnamurti
Yes, that is thought.
Bohm
That's thought. Now are you discussing the death of thought?
Krishnamurti
Yes, that's only also again superficial.
Bohm
That's very small.
Krishnamurti
Very small.
Bohm
And is there something beyond thought itself that should die...
Krishnamurti
That's what I want to get at.
Shainberg
We're trying to get at the meaning of death..
Bohm
We're not quite clear.
Krishnamurti
No, just look. The image dies. Image, that's fairly simple. It is a very shallow affair.
Bohm
Right.
Krishnamurti
Then there's the ending of thought, which is the ending of... the dying to thought.
Bohm
Right. You would say thought is deeper than the image but still not very deep.
Krishnamurti
Not very deep. So...
Bohm
All right.
Krishnamurti
So, we have removed the maker of image and the image itself.
Shainberg
Right. Right.
Krishnamurti
Now, is there something more?
Bohm
In what sense something more? Something more that exists or something more that has to die, or...
Shainberg
This is something creative that happens?
Krishnamurti
No. No, we are going to find out.
Bohm
But I mean your question is not clear when you say, 'Is there something more?'
Krishnamurti
Is there.? No. Is that all death?
Bohm
Oh, oh I see. Is that all that death is.
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Shainberg
This is death.
Krishnamurti
No. No. I understand, image, maker of image.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
But that's a very shallow affair.
Shainberg
Right. So then there is something else...
Krishnamurti
And then I say, 'Is that all, is that the meaning of death?'
Shainberg
Right. I think I'm getting with you - is that the meaning of death only in that little part. Is there a meaning that's bigger?
Krishnamurti
Death must have something enormously significant.
Shainberg
Right.
Bohm
Now you are saying death has a meaning, a significance for everything. For the whole of life.
Krishnamurti
Yes, whole of life.
Bohm
Yes, now first could you say why do you say it? You see, in other words, first it's not generally accepted if we're thinking of the viewer, that death is that sort of thing. In other words the way we live now, death...
Krishnamurti
Is at the end.
Bohm
...is at the end and you try to forget about it, you know, and try to make it unobtrusive, and so on.
Krishnamurti
But if you, as you three have worked at it, pointed out, my life has been in a turmoil. And my life has been a constant conflict, anxiety, all the rest of it.
Bohm
Right.
Krishnamurti
That's been my life. I have clung to the known, and therefore death is the unknown. So I am afraid of that. And you come along, we come along and say, look, death is partly the ending of the image, the maker of the image, and death must have much more, greater significance, than merely this - empty saucer (laughs).
Bohm
Well, if you could make more clear why it must have, you see.
Krishnamurti
'Why it must have'. Because...
Shainberg
Why must it.
Krishnamurti
Is life just a shallow, empty pool? Empty mud at the end of it?
Shainberg
Well, why would you assume it's anything else?
Krishnamurti
I want to know.
Bohm
But, I mean, even if it is something else, we have to ask why is it that death is the key to understanding that, do you see.
Krishnamurti
Because it's the ending of everything.
Bohm
All right.
Shainberg
Everything
Krishnamurti
Reality...
Bohm
Yes.
Krishnamurti
And all my concepts, images - end of all the memories.
Bohm
But that's in the ending of thought, right?
Krishnamurti
Ending of thought. And also it means, ending of time.
Bohm
Ending of time.
Krishnamurti
Time coming to a stop totally. And there is no future in the sense of past meeting the present and carrying on.
Bohm
You mean psychologically speaking.
Krishnamurti
Yes, psychologically speaking, of course.
Bohm
Where we still admit the future and the past.
Krishnamurti
Of course.
Shainberg
That's right, OK, yes.
Krishnamurti
Ending - psychological ending of everything.
Shainberg
Right
Krishnamurti
That's what death is.
Shainberg
Right.
Bohm
And when the organism dies then everything ends for that organism.
Krishnamurti
Of course. When the organism - this organism dies, it's finished.
Shainberg
Right
Krishnamurti
But wait a minute. If I don't end the image, the stream of image-making goes on.
Shainberg
Right.
Bohm
Yes, well, I think it's not too clear where it goes on, you see; in other people, or in...
Krishnamurti
It manifests itself in other people. That is, I die.
Shainberg
Right, the organism.
Krishnamurti
I die, the organism dies, and at the last moment I'm still with the image I have.
Bohm
Yes, so then what happens to that?
Krishnamurti
That's what I'm saying. That image has its continuity with the other rest of the images - your image, my image.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Your image is not different from mine.
Shainberg
Right. We share that.
Krishnamurti
No, no, not share it, it's not different.
Shainberg
Right
Krishnamurti
It may have a little more frill, a little bit more colour, but essentially the image, my image is your image.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Now, so there is this constant flow of image-making.
Bohm
Well, where does it take place? In people?
Krishnamurti
It is there, it manifests itself in people.
Bohm
Oh, you feel that it's broader, in some ways it's more general, more universal.
Krishnamurti
Yes, much more universal.
Bohm
That's rather...
Krishnamurti
Eh?
Bohm
I say, it's rather strange, I mean to think of that.
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Shainberg
It's there.
Krishnamurti
It is a... it is...
Shainberg
It's a river, yes, like a river, it's there. And it manifests itself in streams which we call people.
Krishnamurti
Manifest - no. That stream is the maker of images and images.
Bohm
So, in other words, you're saying the image does not originate only in one brain, but in some sense it is universal.
Krishnamurti
Universal. Quite right.
Bohm
Yes, but that's not clear. You're not only saying that it's just the sum of the effects of all the brains, but are you implying something more?
Krishnamurti
It's the effect of all the brains, and it manifests itself in people, as they're born; genes and all the rest of it.
Bohm
Yes
Krishnamurti
Now. Is that all? That's - yes, that's...
Bohm
Yes.
Krishnamurti
Does death leave me - me, I mean - does death bring about this sense of enormous, endless energy which has no beginning and no end? Or is it just, I have got rid of my images and the image-maker is... I can stop it, it is fairly simple, it can be stopped, and yes. But I haven't touched the much deeper things, there must be, life must have infinite depth.
Bohm
Yes, now the death which opens that up.
Krishnamurti
Death opens that up.
Bohm
It's the death, you say... but we say it's more than the death of the image-making, you see this is what is not clear. Is there, for example... I'm trying to say... something real which is blocking that from realising itself?
Krishnamurti
Yes, 'I' is blocking itself through image and thought maker, the maker of images.
Shainberg
Yes, that's what's blocking it though, the image-making and thought-making is blocking the greater.
Bohm
Yes.
Krishnamurti
Wait, wait, blocking that.
Shainberg
Blocking that, right.
Krishnamurti
But there are still other blocks, deeper blocks.
Bohm
That's what I was trying to get at. That there are deeper blocks that are real.
Krishnamurti
That are real. Now.
Bohm
And they really have to die.
Krishnamurti
That's just it.
Shainberg
So, would that be like this stream that you're talking about, that's there?
Krishnamurti
No, no. There is a stream of sorrow, isn't there?
Bohm
Yes, now in what sense? Is sorrow deeper than the image?
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Shainberg
It is.
Bohm
It is. Well, that's important then.
Krishnamurti
It is.
Shainberg
You think so?
Krishnamurti
Don't you?
Shainberg
I do. I think...
Krishnamurti
No, no, be careful sir, this is very serious, this thing.
Shainberg
That's right, that's right.
Bohm
I mean, would you say sorrow and suffering are the same, are just different words?
Krishnamurti
Oh, different words - sorrow and suffering.
Bohm
All right, just to clear it up.
Shainberg
Deeper than this image-making is sorrow.
Krishnamurti
Isn't it? Man has lived with sorrow a million years.
Bohm
Well, could we say a little more about sorrow. You see, what is it? It's more than pain, you see.
Krishnamurti
Oh, much more than pain, much more than loss, much more than losing my son and my parent or this or that.
Shainberg
It's deeper than that.
Krishnamurti
It's much deeper than that.
Shainberg
Right, right.
Bohm
It goes beyond the image, beyond thought.
Krishnamurti
Of course. Beyond thought.
Bohm
Oh. Beyond what we would ordinarily call feeling.
Krishnamurti
Oh, of course. Feeling, thought. Now can that end?
Shainberg
Well, let me before you go on, are you saying that the stream of sorrow, if I can be so naive, is a different stream from the stream of image-making? If you had to say it's there, is it two different streams, or...
Krishnamurti
No, it's part of the stream.
Shainberg
Part of the same stream.
Krishnamurti
Stream but much deeper.
Shainberg
Much deeper.
Bohm
Are you saying, then, there's a very deep stream - image-making is on the surface of this stream - the waves on the surface, right?
Krishnamurti
That's all. That's all. But we have been left with that you see, I want to penetrate.
Bohm
Well, could you say we've understood the waves on the surface of this stream which we call image making.
Krishnamurti
Image-making. That's right.
Bohm
Right. And whatever disturbances and sorrow comes out on the surface as image-making.
Krishnamurti
That's right.
Shainberg
So now we have got to go deep sea diving, right? (Laughter)
Krishnamurti
River-diving.
Bohm
But what is, you know, sorrow?
Krishnamurti
You know, sir, there is universal sorrow.
Bohm
Yes, but let's try to make it clear. You see, it's not merely that the sum of all the sorrow of different people?
Krishnamurti
No, no, it is this: could we put it this way - the waves on the river doesn't bring compassion or love - compassion and love are the same, they're synonymous so we'll keep to the word 'compassion'. The waves don't bring this. What will? Without compassion human beings - as they are doing - they are destroying themselves. So, does compassion come with the ending of sorrow which is not the sorrow created by thought.
Bohm
Yes, all right. So, let's say in thought you have sorrow for the self - right?
Krishnamurti
Yes, sorrow for the self.
Bohm
Which is self-pity, and now you say there's another sorrow, I think we haven't quite got hold of it. There's a deeper sorrow...
Krishnamurti
There is a deeper sorrow.
Bohm
...which is universal, not merely the total sum but rather something universal.
Krishnamurti
That's right.
Shainberg
Can we just say... Can we spell that out, go into that?
Krishnamurti
Don't you know it?
Shainberg
Yes.
Krishnamurti
Without my - I'm just asking - don't you know or are aware of a much deeper sorrow than the sorrow of thought, self-pity, the sorrow of the image.
Shainberg
Yes.
Bohm
Does this sorrow have any content? I mean to say it's sorrow for the fact that man is in this state of affairs which he can't get out of.
Krishnamurti
That's partly it. That means partly the sorrow of ignorance.
Bohm
Yes. I mean that man is ignorant and cannot get out of it.
Krishnamurti
Cannot get out - you follow?
Bohm
Right. Yes.
Krishnamurti
And that the perception of that sorrow is compassion.
Shainberg
Right.
Bohm
All right, so the non-perception is sorrow then?
Krishnamurti
Yes, yes. Are we saying the same thing?
Shainberg
No, I don't think so.
Krishnamurti
Say for instance, you see me in ignorance.
Bohm
Or I see the whole mankind.
Krishnamurti
Mankind in ignorance. Shainberg
Yes. Right.
Krishnamurti
And after living millennia, they are still ignorant - ignorant in the sense we are talking, that is, the maker of the image (laughs) and all that.
Bohm
Now, let's say that if my mind is really right, good, clear, that should have a deep effect on me? Right?
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Bohm
Right?
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Shainberg
What would have a deep effect? To see this ignorance.
Bohm
To see this tremendous ignorance, you see, this tremendous destruction.
Krishnamurti
We are getting at it.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
We are getting it.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
We are getting it.
Bohm
But then if I don't fully perceive, if I start to escape the perception of it, then I'm in it too?
Krishnamurti
Yes, you are in it too.
Bohm
But the feeling is still with... That universal sorrow is still something that I can feel, I mean, is that what you mean to say?
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Bohm
Although I am not very perceptive as to what it means.
Krishnamurti
No, no, no. You can feel the sorrow of thought.
Bohm
The sorrow of thought. But I can sense, or somehow be aware, of the universal sorrow.
Krishnamurti
Yes. You can.
Bohm
Right.
Shainberg
You say the universal sorrow is there whether you feel it or not.
Krishnamurti
You can feel it. You can feel it.
Bohm
Feel it or sense it.
Shainberg
Right.
Bohm
Right.
Krishnamurti
Sorrow of man living like this.
Bohm
Is that the essence of it?
Krishnamurti
I'm just moving into it. Let's move in.
Bohm
Yes. Is there more to it then?
Krishnamurti
Much more to it!
Bohm
Oh well, then perhaps we should try to bring that out.
Krishnamurti
I am trying to, There is...
Shainberg
Sorrow, yes.
Krishnamurti
You see me. I live the ordinary life: image, sorrow, fear, anxiety, all that. I have the sorrow of self-pity, all that. And you who are enlightened in quotes, look at me and say, my... Aren't you full of sorrow for me? Which is compassion.
Bohm
I would say that is a kind of energy which is tremendously aroused because of this situation.
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Bohm
Right?
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Bohm
But that, would you call it sorrow, or you'd call it compassion.
Krishnamurti
Compassion, which is the outcome of sorrow.
Bohm
But have you felt sorrow first? I mean has the enlightened person felt sorrow and then compassion?
Krishnamurti
No.
Shainberg
Or the other way?
Krishnamurti
No. No, no - be careful old man. Go very carefully. You see, sir, you are saying that one must have sorrow first to have compassion.
Bohm
I'm not, I am just exploring it, right?
Krishnamurti
Yes, we are exploring. Through sorrow you come to compassion.
Bohm
That's what you seem to be saying.
Krishnamurti
Yes, I seem to be saying, which implies, that I must go through all the horrors of mankind.
Shainberg
Right. Experience.
Krishnamurti
In order.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
No.
Shainberg
No?
Krishnamurti
No!
Bohm
But let's say...
Krishnamurti
That's the point, sir - forgive me.
Bohm
Well, let's say that the enlightened one, the enlightened man, sees this sorrow, sees this destruction, you know - sees this - and he feels something - right? - he senses something which is a tremendous energy...
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Bohm
...we call it compassion. Now does he... he understands that the people are in sorrow...
Krishnamurti
Of course!
Bohm
...but he is not himself in sorrow.
Krishnamurti
That's right. That's right.
Bohm
But he feels a tremendous energy to do something.
Krishnamurti
Yes. Tremendous energy of compassion.
Bohm
Compassion. Feeling for them.
Krishnamurti
Compassion.
Shainberg
Would you then say that the enlightened man perceives or is aware of the - I hate to use the word, inefficiency - but the conflict, he's not aware of sorrow, he's aware of the awkwardness, the blundering, the loss of life.
Krishnamurti
No, sir. Doctor Shainberg, just listen. You have been through all this, suppose you have been through all this.
Shainberg
Sorrow
Krishnamurti
Image, thought, the sorrow of thought, the fears, anxiety, and you say, I have understood that. It's over in me. But you have left very little: you have energy, but it is a very shallow business.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
And is life so shallow as all that? Or has it an immense depth? Depth is wrong word, but...
Bohm
Has inwardness...
Krishnamurti
And great inwardness. And to find that out don't you have to die to everything known?
Bohm
Yes, but how does this relate to sorrow at the same time?
Krishnamurti
I am coming... You might feel... I am ignorant, I have my anxieties, all the rest of it. You are beyond it, you are on the other side of the stream as it were. Don't you have compassion?
Shainberg
Yes, yes, I do.
Bohm
Yes.
Krishnamurti
Not up here.
Shainberg
No, I know. But I see it and I...
Krishnamurti
Compassion.
Shainberg
Yes.
Krishnamurti
Is that the result of the ending of sorrow, the universal sorrow.
Bohm
What - the universal sorrow.
Krishnamurti
Universal sorrow.
Bohm
Wait - you say the ending of sorrow. Now you're talking about a person who was is in sorrow to begin with.
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Bohm
And in him this universal sorrow ends. Is that what you're saying?
Krishnamurti
No. No, a little more than that.
Bohm
More than that, then we have to go slowly, because if you say the ending of universal sorrow the thing that is puzzling is to say it still exists, you see.
Krishnamurti
What?
Bohm
You see if the universal sorrow ends, then it's all gone.
Krishnamurti
Ah! It's still there, no. Of course.
Bohm
It's still there. You see there is a certain puzzle in language. So in some sense the universal sorrow ends but in another sense it persists.
Krishnamurti
Yes. Yes, that's right.
Bohm
But could we say that if you have an insight into the essence of sorrow - universal sorrow - then in that sense sorrow ends in that insight. Is that what you mean?
Krishnamurti
Yes, yes.
Bohm
Although you know it's still there.
Krishnamurti
Yes, yes, although it still goes on.
Shainberg
I've got a deeper question now. The question is...
Krishnamurti
Ah, I don't think you have understood.
Shainberg
I think I understood that one, but my question comes before: which is that, here is me - the image-making has died. Right? That's the waves. Now, I come into the sorrow.
Krishnamurti
You've lost the sorrow of thought.
Shainberg
Right. The sorrow of thought has gone, but there's a deeper sorrow.
Krishnamurti
Is there? Or you are assuming that there is a deeper sorrow.
Shainberg
I'm going... I'm trying to understand what you are saying.
Krishnamurti
Ah! No, no! I am saying, is there compassion which is not related to thought, or is that compassion born of sorrow?
Shainberg
Born of sorrow.
Krishnamurti
Born in the sense, when the sorrow ends there is compassion.
Shainberg
OK. That makes it a little clearer. When the sorrow of thought...
Krishnamurti
Not personal sorrow.
Shainberg
No. When the sorrow...
Krishnamurti
Not the sorrow of thought.
Bohm
Not the sorrow of thought, but something deeper.
Shainberg
Something deeper. When that sorrow...
Bohm
I think he's seen the point.
Krishnamurti
That's it.
Shainberg
When that sorrow ends then there is a birth of compassion, of energy.
Krishnamurti
Now. Is there not a deeper sorrow than the sorrow of thought?
Shainberg
There's the sorrow - David was saying there's the sorrow for ignorance is deeper than thought. The sorrow for the universal calamity of mankind trapped in this sorrow; the sorrow of a continual repetition of wars and history and poverty and people mistreating each other, that's a deeper sorrow.
Krishnamurti
I understand all that.
Shainberg
That's deeper than the sorrow of thought.
Krishnamurti
Can we ask this question: what is compassion which is love - we're using that one word to cover a wide field. What is compassion? Can a man who is in sorrow, thought, image, can he have that? He can't. Absolutely he cannot. Right? Right?
Bohm
Yes.
Krishnamurti
Now. When does that come into being? Without that life has no meaning. You have left me without that. So if all that you have taken away from me is superficial sorrow - thought and image, and I feel there's something much more.
Bohm
I mean just doing that leaves something emptier, you know...
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Bohm
Meaningless.
Krishnamurti
Something much greater than this shallow little business.
Bohm
Is there, you see, when we have thought producing sorrow and self pity, but also the realisation of the sorrow of mankind and could you say the energy which is deeper is being in some way..
Krishnamurti
Moved.
Bohm
You see, well, first of all in this sorrow this energy is caught up in whirlpools.
Krishnamurti
Yes, that's right, in a small field, quite right.
Bohm
It's deeper than thought but there is some sort of very deep disturbance of the energy...
Krishnamurti
Yes. Quite right, sir.
Bohm
...which we call deep sorrow.
Krishnamurti
Deep sorrow.
Bohm
Ultimately it must... its origin is the blockage in thought, though, isn't it?
Krishnamurti
Yes, yes. That is deep sorrow of mankind.
Bohm
Yes. The deep sorrow of mankind.
Krishnamurti
For centuries upon centuries, it's like, you know, like a vast reservoir of sorrow.
Bohm
It's sort of moving around in, in some way that's disorderly and...
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Bohm
...and preventing clarity and so on. I mean perpetuating ignorance.
Krishnamurti
Ignorance. Perpetuating ignorance, right.
Bohm
That's it. Because, you see, if it were not for that then man's natural capacity to learn would solve all these problems. Is that possible?
Krishnamurti
That's right.
Shainberg
All right, all right.
Krishnamurti
Unless you three give me, or help me, or show me, or have an insight into something much greater, I say, 'Yes this is very nice', and I go off - you follow?
Bohm
Yes.
Krishnamurti
What we're trying to do, as far as I can see, is to penetrate into something beyond death.
Bohm
Beyond death.
Krishnamurti
Death we say is not only the ending of the organism, but the ending of all the content of the consciousness and the consciousness which we know as it is now.
Bohm
Is it also the ending of sorrow?
Krishnamurti
Ending of sorrow of that kind, of the...
Bohm
Superficial.
Krishnamurti
...of the superficial kind. That's clear.
Bohm
Yes.
Krishnamurti
And a man who's gone through all that he says, that isn't good enough, you haven't given me the flower, the perfume. You've just given me the ashes of it. And, now, we three are trying to find out that which is beyond the ashes. (Laughs)
Shainberg
Right.
Bohm
You say, there is that which is beyond death.
Krishnamurti
Absolutely!
Bohm
I mean, would you say that is eternal or...
Krishnamurti
I don't want to use this word.
Bohm
No, not use the word, but I mean in some sense beyond time.
Krishnamurti
Beyond time.
Bohm
Therefore 'eternal' is not the best word for it.
Krishnamurti
Therefore, there is something beyond this superficial death, a movement that has no beginning and no ending.
Bohm
But it is a movement.
Krishnamurti
It's a movement. Movement, not in time.
Bohm
Not in time, but...
Shainberg
What is the difference between a movement in time and a movement out of time?
Krishnamurti
That which is constantly renewing, constantly - 'new' isn't the word - constantly fresh, flowering, endlessly flowering, that is timeless. This is all... flowering implies time.
Bohm
Yes, well, I think we can see the point.
Shainberg
I think we get that. The feel of renewal in creation and in coming and going without transition, without duration, without linearity, that has...
Krishnamurti
You see, let me come back to it in a different way. Being normally a fairly intelligent man, read various books, tried various meditations - Zen and this and that and the other thing - at one glance I have an insight into all that, at one glance, it is finished, I won't touch it! And it may be the ending of this image-making and all that. There a meditation must take place to delve, to have an insight, into something which the mind has never touched before.
Bohm
Right. But I mean even if you do touch it, then it doesn't mean the next time it will be known.
Krishnamurti
Ah! It can never be known in the sense..
Krishnamurti
Yes, it's always new. It is not a memory stored up and altered, changed and call it 'new'. It has never been old. (Laughs)
Bohm
Yes.
Krishnamurti
I don't know if I can put it that way.
Bohm
Yes, yes, I think I understand that, you see. Could you say like a mind that has never known sorrow?
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Bohm
And to say that it might seem puzzling at first but it's a move out of this state which has known sorrow and...
Krishnamurti
Quite right, sir.
Bohm
...in to a state which has not known sorrow.
Krishnamurti
Not... yes, that's quite right.
Bohm
But there's no you, so...
Krishnamurti
That's right, that's right.
Shainberg
Can we say it this way too: could we say that it's an action which is moving where there is no 'you'?
Krishnamurti
You see, when you use the word 'action', action means not in the future or in the past, action is the doing.
Shainberg
Yes.
Krishnamurti
I mean most of our actions are the result of the cause, or the past, or according to a future - ideals and so on.
Shainberg
This is not that.
Krishnamurti
That's not action.
Shainberg
No, no.
Krishnamurti
That is just conformity.
Shainberg
Right. No, I'm talking about a different kind of action.
Krishnamurti
So. No, I wouldn't... action implies - see, there're several things involved. To penetrate into this, the mind must be completely silent.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Right?
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Otherwise you are projecting something into it.
Bohm
Right.
Shainberg
Right. It is not projecting into anything.
Krishnamurti
Absolute silence.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
And that silence is not the product of control: wished for, premeditated, pre-determined. Therefore that silence is not brought about through will.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Right?
Bohm
Right.
Krishnamurti
Now, in that silence there is the sense of something beyond all time, all death, all thought. You follow? Something - nothing! Not a thing - you understand? Nothing! And therefore empty. And therefore tremendous energy.
Bohm
Is this...
Shainberg
Moving.
Krishnamurti
Energy. Don't - leave it! Leave it!
Bohm
Is this also the source of compassion?
Krishnamurti
That's what I... That's it.
Shainberg
What do you mean by 'source'?
Bohm
Well, that in this energy is compassion, is that right?
Krishnamurti
Yes, that's right.
Shainberg
In this energy...
Krishnamurti
This energy is compassion
Bohm
Is compassion.
Shainberg
That's different.
Krishnamurti
Yes. Of course.
Shainberg
This energy is compassion. You see, that's different from saying 'the source'.
Krishnamurti
You see, and beyond that there is something more.
Bohm
Yes
Shainberg
Beyond that?
Krishnamurti
Of course.
Bohm
Beyond that. Well, why do you say 'of course'? (Laughter) What could it be that's more?
Krishnamurti
Sir, let's put it, approach it differently. Everything thought has created is not sacred, is not holy.
Bohm
Yea, well, because it's fragmented.
Krishnamurti
Is fragmented, we know it, and putting up an image and worshipping it is a creation of thought; made by the hand or by the mind, it's still an image. So, in that there is nothing sacred, because - as he pointed out - thought is fragment, limited, finite, it is the product of memory and so on.
Bohm
Is the sacred, therefore that which is without limit?
Krishnamurti
That's it. There is something beyond compassion...
Bohm
Beyond compassion.
Krishnamurti
...which is sacred.
Bohm
Yes. Is it beyond movement?
Krishnamurti
Sacred. Sacred - you can't say movement, or non movement.
Bohm
You can't say anything.
Krishnamurti
A living thing; a living thing, you can only examine a dead thing.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
A living thing, you can't examine. What we are trying to do, is to examine that living thing which we call sacred, which is beyond compassion.
Bohm
Well, what is our relation to the sacred then?
Krishnamurti
To the man who is ignorant there is no relationship. Right? Which is true.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
To the man who has removed the image, all that, who is free of the image and the image-maker, he is still... it has no meaning yet. Right?
Bohm
Yes.
Krishnamurti
It has meaning only when he goes beyond everything, beyond - he dies to everything. Dying means, in the sense, never for a single second accumulating anything psychologically.
Shainberg
Would you say that there is any - you asked the question, what is the relationship to the sacred - is there ever a relationship to the sacred or is the sacred...
Krishnamurti
No, no, no, he is asking something.
Shainberg
Yes.
Krishnamurti
He is asking, what is the relationship between that which is sacred, holy, and to reality.
Bohm
Yes, well, it's implicit anyway.
Krishnamurti
Eh?
Bohm
I mean, that's implied.
Krishnamurti
Of course. We've talked about it, some time ago, this question, which is: reality which is the product of thought has no relationship to that because thought is an empty...
Shainberg
Right. Right.
Krishnamurti
...little affair. That may have a relationship with this.
Bohm
In some way.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
And the relationship comes through insight, intelligence and compassion.
Shainberg
How, how... What is that relationship? I mean, what is intelligence I suppose we're asking.
Krishnamurti
Intelligence? What is intelligence.
Shainberg
I mean, how does intelligence act?
Krishnamurti
Ah! Wait! Wait! You have had an insight into the image. You have had an insight into the movement of thought, movement of thought which is self-pity, creates sorrow, and all that. You have had a real insight into it. Haven't you?
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
It's not a verbal agreement or disagreement or logical conclusion, you have had a real insight into that business. Into the waves of the river. Now, have you an insight also... isn't that insight intelligence? Which is not the intelligence of a clever man - we're not talking of that. So there is that intelligence - you've already got that intelligence.
Shainberg
That's right.
Krishnamurti
Now move with that intelligence, which is not yours or mine, intelligence - not Dr Shainberg's or K's, or somebody's: it is universal intelligence, global or cosmic intelligence - that insight. Now, move a step further into it.
Shainberg
Move with, yes
Krishnamurti
Have an insight into sorrow, which is not the sorrow of thought, all that, the enormous sorrow of mankind, of ignorance - you follow? - and then out of that insight compassion. Now, insight into compassion: is compassion the end of all life, end of all death? It seems so because you have thrown away, mind has thrown away all the burden which man has imposed upon himself. Right? So you have that tremendous feeling, a tremendous thing inside you. Now, that compassion - delve into it. And there is something sacred, untouched by man - man in the sense, untouched by his mind, by his cravings, by his demands, by his prayers, by his everlasting chicanery, tricks. And that may be the origin of everything - which man has misused. You follow? Not that it exists in him because then we get lost.
Bohm
If you say it's the origin - of all matter, all nature?
Krishnamurti
Of everything, of all matter, of all nature.
Bohm
Of all mankind.
Krishnamurti
Yes. That's right, sir. I'll stick by it. (Laughs) So, at the end of these dialogues, what have you, what has the viewer got? What has he captured?
Shainberg
What would we hope he'd capture? Would you say what'd we hope that he would capture, or what has he actually captured?
Krishnamurti
What has he actually, not hope.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
What has he actually captured. Has his bowl filled?
Shainberg
Filled with the sacred.
Krishnamurti
Or will he say, 'well, I've got a lot of ashes left, very kind of you, but I can get that anywhere'. Any logical, rational human being will say 'Yes, by discussing you can wipe out all this and I am left nothing'.
Shainberg
Or has he got...
Krishnamurti
Yes, that's what... He has come to you - I have come to you three wanting to find out, transforming my life, because I feel that is absolutely necessary. Not to - you know - get rid of my ambition, all the silly stuff which mankind has collected. I empty myself of all that. I, please when I use the word 'I' it's not 'I' - 'I' can't empty itself, 'I' dies to all that. Have I got anything out of all this? Have you given me the perfume of that thing?
Shainberg
Can I give you the perfume?
Krishnamurti
Or - yes sir, share it with me?
Shainberg
I can share it with you. Has the viewer shared with us...
Bohm
Yes
Shainberg
...the experience we've had being together.
Krishnamurti
Have you, have you two shared this thing with this man?
Shainberg
Right. Have we shared this with this man?
Krishnamurti
If not, then what, what? A clever discussion, dialogue, oh, that we are fed up! (Laughs) You can only share when you are really hungry - you follow? - burning with hunger. Otherwise you share words. So I have come to the point, we have come to the point when we see life has an extraordinary meaning.
Bohm
Well, let's say it has a meaning far beyond what we usually think of.
Krishnamurti
Yes, this is, this is so shallow and empty.
Bohm
Well, would you say the sacred is also life?
Krishnamurti
Yes, that what I was getting at.
Bohm
Well...
Krishnamurti
Life is sacred.
Bohm
And the sacred is life.
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Shainberg
And have we shared that?
Krishnamurti
Have you shared that. So, we mustn't misuse life.
Bohm
Right.
Krishnamurti
You understand? We mustn't waste it because our life is so short. You follow?
Bohm
You mean you feel that each of our lives has a part to play in this sacred which you talk about.
Krishnamurti
What, sir?
Bohm
Each of our lives has an important part in some sense to play.
Krishnamurti
It's part... It's there!
Bohm
It's part of the whole...
Krishnamurti
Oh, yes.
Bohm
...and that misusing it is - well, to use it rightly has a tremendous significance.
Krishnamurti
Yes. Quite right. But to accept it as a theory is as good as any other theory.
Shainberg
Right. There's something though... I feel troubled. Have we shared it?
Krishnamurti
Yes, sir!
Shainberg
That burns, that question burns. Have we shared the sacred?
Krishnamurti
Which means, really, all these dialogues have been a process of meditation. Not a clever argument. A real penetrating meditation which brings insight into everything that's being said.
Bohm
Oh, I should say that we have been doing that.
Krishnamurti
I think that we have been doing that.
Shainberg
We've been doing that.
Bohm
Yes.
Shainberg
And have we shared that?
Bohm
With whom? Among ourselves?
Shainberg
With the viewer.
Bohm
Well, I should think...
Krishnamurti
Ah!
Bohm
...that's the difficulty.
Krishnamurti
Are you considering the viewer or there is no viewer at all? Are you speaking to the viewer or only that thing in which the viewer, you and I, everything is? You understand what I'm saying? You've got two minutes more.
Shainberg
Well, how would you respond then to what David said, he said, 'We have been in a meditation', you say 'We have been' and I say 'We've been in a meditation'. How've we shared in our meditation?
Krishnamurti
No. I mean, no. Has it been a meditation?
Shainberg
Yes.
Krishnamurti
This dialogue.
Shainberg
Yes.
Krishnamurti
You know meditation is not...
Shainberg
Yes.
Krishnamurti
...just an argument.
Bohm
Right.
Shainberg
No, we've shared. I feel that.
Krishnamurti
Seeing the truth of every statement.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Or the falseness of every statement.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Or seeing in the false the truth.
Shainberg
Right. And aware in each of us and in all of us of the false as it comes out and is clarified.
Krishnamurti
See it all, and therefore we are in a state of meditation.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
And whatever we say must, must then lead to that ultimate thing. Then you are not sharing. (Laughs)
Shainberg
Where are you?
Krishnamurti
There is no sharing. we have got one moment. There is no sharing. It is only that.
Shainberg
That. The act of meditation is that.
Krishnamurti
No. There is no - there is only that. Don't... (laughs)
Shainberg
Oh - OK