Krishnamurti
Do we go on where we left off yesterday? Or would you like to start something new?
Bohm
I felt there was a point that wasn't entirely clear what we were discussing yesterday. Which is that we rather accepted that security, psychological security was wrong, was, you know, illusion; but in general I don't think we made it very clear why we think it is a delusion. You see most people feel that psychological security is a real thing and quite necessary and when it is disturbed, or when a person is frightened, or sorrowful, or even so disturbed that he might be psychologically disturbed and require treatment, he feels that psychological security is necessary before he can even begin to do anything.
Krishnamurti
Yes, right.
Bohm
And I think that it isn't at all clear why one should say that it is really not as important as physical security.
Krishnamurti
Yes. No, I think we have made it fairly clear, didn't we?—but let's go into it.
Bohm
Yes.
Krishnamurti
Is there really psychological security at all?
Bohm
I don't think we discussed that fully last time.
Krishnamurti
Of course. Nobody accepts that. But we are enquiring into it, going into the problem of it.
Shainberg
But we said something even deeper I think yesterday. And that is that—at least as I was summarising for myself—and that is that we felt—correct me if you think I am wrong here—that conditioning sets the stage, first the importance of psychological security, and that in turn creates insecurity. And it is the conditioning that creates the psychological security as a focus? Would you agree with that?
Krishnamurti
I think that we two mean something different.
Shainberg
What do you mean?
Krishnamurti
First of all, sir, we take it for granted that there is psychological security.
Shainberg
Okay. Well, we think that we can get it.
Krishnamurti
We feel that there is.
Shainberg
Right. That's right.
Bohm
Yes, I think that if you told somebody who was feeling very disturbed mentally that there is no psychological security he would just feel worse.
Krishnamurti
Collapse. Of course.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
We are talking of fairly sane, rational people.
Shainberg
Okay.
Krishnamurti
We are questioning whether there is any psychological security at all; permanency, stability, a sense of well-founded, deep-rooted existence psychologically.
Shainberg
Maybe if we could say more then, what would be psychological security?
Krishnamurti
After all, I believe. I believe in something.
Shainberg
And that gives me…
Krishnamurti
It may be the most foolish belief…
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
…a neurotic belief. I believe in it.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
And then that gives you a tremendous sense of existence, living, vitality, and stability.
Bohm
I think you could think of two examples: one is that if I could really believe that after dying I would go to heaven, and be quite sure of it, then I could be very secure anywhere, not matter what happens.
Shainberg
That would make you feel good.
Bohm
Well, I'd say, I don't really have to worry, because it is all a temporary trouble and then I am pretty sure that in time it is all going to be very good. Do you see?
Krishnamurti
Right. That is the whole Asiatic attitude, more or less.
Shainberg
Right.
Bohm
Or if I think I am a Communist, then I say, in time Communism is going to solve everything and we are going through a lot of troubles now but you know it is all going to be worthwhile and it will work out, and in the end it will be all right.
Shainberg
Right.
Bohm
If I could be sure of that then I would say I feel very secure inside, even if conditions are hard.
Shainberg
Okay. All right.
Krishnamurti
So we are questioning, though one has these strong beliefs which gives them a sense of security, permanency, whether there is such in reality, actuality…
Shainberg
It is not possible.
Krishnamurti
Wait!
Shainberg
The question is: is it possible?
Krishnamurti
Is it possible.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
I may believe in god and that gives me a tremendous sense of…
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
…impermanency of this world, but at least there is permanency somewhere else.
Shainberg
Yes, yes. But I want to ask David something. Do you think that, for instance take a scientist, a guy who is going to his laboratory everyday, or take a doctor, he is getting security. He takes security from the very 'routinization' of his life.
Krishnamurti
From his knowledge.
Shainberg
Yes, from his knowledge if he keeps doing this, he feels… In the scientist, where does he get security?
Bohm
Well, he makes believe he is learning the permanent laws of nature, really getting something that means something.
Shainberg
Yes.
Bohm
And also getting a position in society and being sure, being well known and respected and financially secure.
Shainberg
He believes that these things will give him the thing. The mother believes that the child will give her security.
Krishnamurti
Don't you psychologically have security?
Shainberg
Yes, Okay. Right. That's a good point. I get a security out of my knowledge, out of my routine, out of my patients, out of seeing my patients, out of my position.
Bohm
But there is conflict in that because if I think it over a little bit, I doubt it, I question it. I say, it doesn't look all that secure, anything may happen. I mean I say there may be a war, there may be a depression, there may be a flood.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
There may be sane people all of a sudden in the world! [Laughter]
Shainberg
Do you think there is a chance?
Bohm
So I say there is conflict and confusion in my security because I am not sure about it.
Shainberg
You are not sure about it.
Bohm
But if I had an absolute belief in god and heaven.
Krishnamurti
This is so obvious!
Shainberg
It is obvious. I agree with you it is obvious, but I think it has to be—in other words, it has to be really felt through.
Krishnamurti
But, sir, you, Dr Shainberg, you are the victim.
Shainberg
I'll be the victim.
Krishnamurti
For the moment. Don't you have strong belief?
Shainberg
Right. Well, I wouldn't say strong.
Krishnamurti
Don't you have a sense of permanency somewhere inside you?
Shainberg
I think I do.
Krishnamurti
Psychologically?
Shainberg
Yes, I do. I mean I have a sense of permanency about my intention.
Krishnamurti
Intention?
Shainberg
I mean my work.
Krishnamurti
Your knowledge.
Shainberg
My knowledge, my…
Krishnamurti
…status.
Shainberg
…my status, the continuity of my interest. You know what I mean?
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Shainberg
There is a sense of security in the feeling that I can help someone.
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Shainberg
And I can do my work. Okay.
Krishnamurti
That gives you security, psychological security.
Shainberg
There is something about it that is secure. What am I saying when I say 'security'? I am saying that I won't be lonely.
Krishnamurti
No, no. Feeling secure that you have something that is impenetrable.
Shainberg
Which means—no, I don't feel it that way. I feel it more in the sense of what is going to happen in time, am I going to have to depend on, what is my time going to be, am I going to be lonely, is it going to be empty?
Krishnamurti
No, sir.
Shainberg
Isn't that security?
Krishnamurti
As Doctor Bohm pointed out, if one has a strong belief in reincarnation, as the whole Asiatic world has, then it doesn't matter what happens, then in the next life you have a better chance. You might be miserable this life but next life you will be happier. So that gives you a great sense of 'this is unimportant, but that is important'.
Shainberg
Right, right.
Krishnamurti
And that gives me a sense of great comfort, great—as though this is a transient world anyhow and eventually I will get there, to something permanent. This is human…
Shainberg
This is in the Asiatic world; but I think in the western world you don't have that.
Krishnamurti
Oh, yes you have it.
Shainberg
With a different focus.
Krishnamurti
Of course.
Bohm
It is different but we have always had the search for security.
Shainberg
Right, right. But what do you think security is? I mean for instance if you became a scientist, you went to the laboratory, you picked up the books all the time. Right? You may not go to the laboratory, but you have had your own laboratory. What the hell do you call security?
Krishnamurti
Security?
Shainberg
Yes, but what does he call his security?
Krishnamurti
Having something…
Shainberg
Knowledge?
Krishnamurti
Having something to which you can cling to and which is not perishable. It may perish eventually but at the time, for the time being it is there to hold on to.
Bohm
You can feel that it is permanent. Like somebody in the past, people used to accumulate gold because gold is the symbol of the imperishable, they could feel.
Shainberg
We still have people who accumulate gold—we have business men, they have got money.
Bohm
You feel it is really there.
Krishnamurti
There.
Bohm
It will never corrode, it will never vanish and you can count on it, you know.
Shainberg
So it is something that I can count on.
Krishnamurti
Count on, hold on to, cling to, be attached to.
Shainberg
The ‘me’.
Krishnamurti
Exactly.
Shainberg
I know that I am a doctor. I can depend on that.
Krishnamurti
Knowledge, experience.
Shainberg
Experience.
Krishnamurti
On the other hand, tradition.
Shainberg
Tradition. I know that if I do this with a patient that I will get this result. I might not get any good results but I'll get this result.
Krishnamurti
So I think that is fairly clear.
Bohm
Yes it is clear enough that we have that, it is part of our society.
Krishnamurti
Part of our conditioning.
Bohm
Conditioning, that we want something secure and permanent. At least we think so.
Shainberg
I think you see that Krishnaji's point about the Eastern world, there is I think a feeling in the West of wanting immortality.
Krishnamurti
That's the same.
Shainberg
Same thing.
Bohm
Wouldn't you say that in so far as thought can project time, that it wants to be able to project everything all right in the future as far as possible.
Shainberg
That is what I meant when I said loneliness: if I don't have to have my loneliness…
Bohm
In other words the anticipation of what is coming is already the present feeling. You see if you can anticipate that something bad may come, you already feel bad.
Krishnamurti
That's right.
Bohm
Therefore you would like to get rid of that.
Shainberg
So you anticipate that it won't happen.
Bohm
That it will all be good.
Shainberg
Right.
Bohm
I would say that security would be the anticipation that everything will be good in the future.
Krishnamurti
Good. Everything will be all right, quite.
Shainberg
It will continue.
Bohm
It will become better, if it is not so good now it will become better with certainty.
Shainberg
So then security is becoming.
Krishnamurti
Yes, becoming, perfecting, becoming.
Shainberg
I was thinking what you were saying the other day about the Brahmin. Anybody can become a Brahmin, then that gives him security.
Krishnamurti
That is, a projected belief, a projected idea, a comforting satisfying concept.
Shainberg
Right. You see I see patients all the time. Their projected belief is I will become—I will find somebody to love me. I see patients who say, “I will become the chief of the department,” “I will become the most famous doctor one day,” “I will become…” and his whole life goes like that. Because it is also all focused on being the best tennis player, the best.
Krishnamurti
Of course, of course.
Bohm
Well, it seems it is all focused on anticipating that life is going to be good, when you say that.
Krishnamurti
Yes, life is going to be good.
Bohm
But it seems to me you wouldn't raise the question unless you had a lot of experience that life is not so good, I mean. In other words, it is a reaction to having had to much experience of disappointment, of suffering.
Krishnamurti
Would you say that we are not conscious of the whole movement of thought?
Bohm
No, but I mean I think to most people they would say that is only very natural, I have had a lot of experience of suffering and disappointment and danger, and that is unpleasant and I would like to be able to anticipate that everything is going to be good.
Shainberg
Yes.
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Bohm
At first sight it would seem that that is really quite natural. But you are saying it is not now, there is something deeply wrong with it.
Krishnamurti
We are saying there is no such thing as psychological security. We have defined what we mean by security.
Shainberg
Yes.
Krishnamurti
We don't have to beat it over and over.
Shainberg
No, I think we have got that.
Bohm
Yes, but is it clear now that these hopes are really vain hopes, that should be obvious, shouldn't it?
Shainberg
That is a good question. You mean is it—you see, Krishnaji he is raising a good question, it is this whole business of you saying, is it meaningful to look for security. Is there such a thing?
Krishnamurti
Sir, there is death at the end of everything.
Bohm
Yes.
Krishnamurti
You want to be secure for the next ten years, that is all, or fifty years. Afterwards it doesn't matter. Or it does matter then you believe in something. That there is god, you will sit next to god on his right hand, or whatever it is you believe. So I am trying to find out, not only that there is no permanency psychologically, which means no tomorrow psychologically.
Bohm
That hasn't yet come out.
Krishnamurti
Of course, of course.
Bohm
We can say empirically we know these hopes for security are false because first of all you say there is death, secondly you can't count on anything, no matter, materially everything changes.
Krishnamurti
Everything is in flux.
Bohm
Mentally everything in your head is changing all the time. You can't count on your feelings, you can't count on enjoying a certain thing that you enjoy now, or you can't count on being healthy, you can't count on money.
Krishnamurti
You can't rely on your wife, you can rely on nothing.
Shainberg
Right.
Bohm
So that is a fact. But I am saying that you are suggesting something deeper.
Krishnamurti
Yes, sir.
Bohm
But we don't base ourselves only on that observation.
Krishnamurti
That is very superficial.
Shainberg
Yes, I am with you there.
Krishnamurti
So is there then, if there is no real security, basic deep, then is there a tomorrow, psychologically? And then you take away all hope. If there is no tomorrow you take away all hope.
Bohm
What you mean by tomorrow, is the tomorrow in which things will get better, I mean.
Krishnamurti
Better, greater success, greater understanding, greater…
Bohm
More love.
Krishnamurti
…more love, you know the whole business.
Shainberg
I think that is a little quick, that jump. I think that there is a jump there because as I hear you, I hear you saying there is no security.
Krishnamurti
But it is so.
Shainberg
It is so. But for me to say, to really say, “Look, I know there is no security.”
Krishnamurti
Why don't you say that?
Shainberg
That is what I am getting at. Why don't I say that?
Bohm
Well, isn't it a fact, isn't it first of all a fact that, just an observed fact, that there isn't anything you can count on psychologically?
Shainberg
Right. But you see I think there is an action there. Krishnaji is saying, why don't you.
Bohm
Why don't you what?
Shainberg
Why don't you say there is no security? Why don't I?
Krishnamurti
Can I? May I? Do you rationalise what we are saying about security? Say yes, as an idea. Or actually so?
Shainberg
I actually say so, but then I say, I'll keep doing it, I'll keep doing it.
Krishnamurti
No. We are asking: do you when you hear there is no security, is it an abstracted idea? Or an actual fact, like that table, like your hand there, or those flowers?
Shainberg
I think it mostly becomes an idea.
Krishnamurti
That is just it.
Bohm
Why should it become an idea?
Krishnamurti
That is it.
Shainberg
That I think is the question: why does it become an idea?
Krishnamurti
Is it part of your training?
Shainberg
Part, yes. Part of my conditioning.
Krishnamurti
Part of a real objection to see things as they are.
Shainberg
That's right. Because it moves. It feels like it moves there. Do you feel that?
Bohm
It seems that if you see that there is no security, then it seems first of all let us try to put it that there is something which seems to be there which is trying to protect itself, namely let us say that it seems to be a fact that the self is there. Do you see what I am driving at?
Krishnamurti
Of course.
Bohm
And if the self is there it requires security and therefore this creates a resistance to accepting that as a fact and puts it as an idea only. If you see what I mean. It seems that the factuality of the self being there has not been denied. The apparent factuality.
Shainberg
Right. But why hasn't it? Why do you think it hasn't been? What happens?
Krishnamurti
Is it that you refuse to see things as they are? Is it that one refuses to see that one is stupid?—Not you, I mean one is stupid. To acknowledge that one is stupid is already—you follow?
Shainberg
Yes. It is like you say to me you refuse to acknowledge that you are stupid—let us say it is me—that means then I have got to do something, it feels like.
Krishnamurti
No.
Shainberg
Something happens to me.
Krishnamurti
Not yet. Action comes through perception, not through ideation.
Shainberg
I am glad you are getting into this.
Bohm
Doesn't it seem that as long as there is the sense of self, the self must say that it is perfect, eternal and so on. Do you see?
Krishnamurti
Of course, of course.
Shainberg
What do you think it is? What makes it so hard to say? Is this what you mean when you talk about the destruction in creation?
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Shainberg
In other words, is there something here about the destruction that I am not.
Krishnamurti
You must destroy that.
Shainberg
I must destroy that. Now what makes it hard for me to destroy? I mean destroy this need for security, why can't I do it?
Krishnamurti
No, no. It is not how you can do it. You see you are already entering into the realm of action.
Shainberg
That I think is the crucial point.
Krishnamurti
But I am not. I say first see it. And from that perception action is inevitable.
Shainberg
Yes. It's good. All right. Now to see insecurity. Do you see insecurity? Do you actually see it?
Krishnamurti
What?
Shainberg
Insecurity.
Krishnamurti
Ah, no, no. Do you actually see…
Shainberg
…there is no security.
Krishnamurti
No, that you are clinging to something, belief and all the rest of it, which gives you security.
Shainberg
Okay.
Krishnamurti
I cling to this house. I am safe. It gives me a sense of my house, my father, it gives me pride, it gives me a sense of possession, it gives me a sense of physical and therefore psychological security.
Shainberg
Right, and a place to go.
Krishnamurti
A place to go. But I may walk out and be killed and I have lost everything. There might be an earthquake and everything gone. Do you actually see it?
Shainberg
I actually…
Krishnamurti
Sir, go to a poor man. He says, “Of course I have no security,” but he wants it. His security, he says, “Well, give me a good job, beer, and constant work and a house, and a good wife and children; that's my security.”
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
When there is a strike, he feels lost. But he has got the union behind him.
Shainberg
Right. But he thinks he is secure.
Krishnamurti
Secure. And that movement of security enters into the psychological field. My wife, I believe in god, I don't believe in god. If I am a good communist I will have a good paper. The whole thing. Do you see it? You see, the seeing, or the perception of that is total action with regard to security.
Shainberg
I can see that that is the total action.
Krishnamurti
No, that is an idea still.
Shainberg
Yes, you're right. I begin to see that this belief, this whole structure begins to be the whole way that I see everything in the world. Right? I begin to see her, the wife, or I begin to see these people, they fit into that structure.
Krishnamurti
You see them, your wife, through the image you have about them.
Shainberg
Right. And to the function they are serving.
Bohm
Their relation to me, yes.
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Shainberg
That is right. That's the function they serve.
Krishnamurti
The picture, the image, the conclusion is the security.
Shainberg
That's right.
Bohm
Yes, but you see why does it present itself as so real? You see I see that there is a thought, a process which is driving on, continually.
Krishnamurti
Are you asking: why has this image, this conclusion, this, all the rest of it, become so fantastically real?
Bohm
Yes. It seems to be standing there real, and everything is referred to it.
Krishnamurti
More real than the marbles, than the hills.
Bohm
Than anything, yes.
Shainberg
More real than anything.
Krishnamurti
Why?
Shainberg
I think it is hard to say why, except it would give me security.
Krishnamurti
No. We have gone much further than that.
Bohm
Because, suppose abstractly and as an idea, we can see the whole thing as no security at all, I mean, just looking at it professionally and abstractly.
Shainberg
That is putting the cart before the horse.
Bohm
No, I am just saying that if it were some simple matter, giving that much proof you would have already accepted it, you see.
Shainberg
Right.
Bohm
But when it comes to this, no proof seems to work.
Shainberg
Right. Nothing seems to work.
Bohm
You say all that but here I am presented with the solid reality of myself and my security, which seems to deny—there is a sort of reaction which seems to say, well, that may be plausible but it really, it's only words. The real thing is me. Do you see?
Shainberg
But there is more than that. Why it has such potency. I mean why it seems to take on such importance.
Bohm
Well may be. But I am saying it seems that the real thing is me, which is all important.
Shainberg
There is no question about it. Me, me, me, is important.
Krishnamurti
Which is an idea.
Bohm
But it doesn't… we can say abstractly it is an idea. The question is, how do you break into this process?
Krishnamurti
No. I think we can break into it, or break through it, or get beyond it, only through perception.
Bohm
Yes.
Shainberg
Yes.
Bohm
Yes, because otherwise every thought is involved in that therefore…
Shainberg
Because I am going to get through it because it will make me feel good, better.
Bohm
The trouble is that all that we have been talking about is in the form of ideas. They may be correct ideas but they won't break into this.
Shainberg
Right.
Bohm
Because this dominates the whole of thought.
Shainberg
That is right. I mean you could even ask why are we here. We are here because we wanted to…
Krishnamurti
No, sir. Look: if I feel my security lies in some image I have, a picture, a symbol, a conclusion, an ideal and so on, I would put it not as an abstraction but bring it down. You see it is so. I believe in something. Actually. Now I say, why do I believe.
Bohm
Well, have you actually done that?
Krishnamurti
No, I haven't because I have no beliefs. I have no picture, I don't go in for all those kind of games. I said, if.
Shainberg
If, right.
Krishnamurti
Then I would bring the abstracted thing into a perceptive reality.
Shainberg
To see my belief, is that it?
Krishnamurti
See it.
Shainberg
To see my belief. Right. To see that 'me' in operation.
Krishnamurti
Yes, if you like to put it that way. Sir, wait a minute. Take a simple thing: have you a conclusion about something? Conclusion, a concept?
Shainberg
Yes.
Krishnamurti
Eh?
Shainberg
Yes, I think I do.
Krishnamurti
Now wait a minute. How is that brought about?
Shainberg
Well, through…
Krishnamurti
Take a simple thing, not complicated, take a simple thing. A concept that I am an Englishman.
Bohm
The trouble is that we probably don't feel attached to those concepts.
Krishnamurti
All right.
Shainberg
Let's take one that is real for me: take the one about me being a doctor.
Krishnamurti
A concept.
Shainberg
That is a concept. That is a conclusion based on training, based on experience, based on the enjoyment of the work.
Krishnamurti
Which means what? A doctor means, the conclusion means he is capable of certain activities.
Shainberg
Right, Okay. Let's take it, concretely.
Krishnamurti
Work at it.
Shainberg
So now I have got the fact that there is a concrete fact that I have had this training, that I get this pleasure from the work, I get a kind of feed back, I get a whole community of feed in.
Krishnamurti
Yes, sir.
Shainberg
Books I've written, papers, positions.
Krishnamurti
Move, move.
Shainberg
All right. All that. Now that is my belief. That belief that I am a doctor is based on all that, that concept.
Krishnamurti
Yes.
Shainberg
Okay. Now I continually act to continue that.
Krishnamurti
Yes, sir, that is understood.
Shainberg
Okay.
Krishnamurti
Therefore you have a conclusion.
Shainberg
A conclusion.
Krishnamurti
You have a concept that you are a doctor.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Because it is based on knowledge, experience, everyday activity.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Pleasure and all the rest of it.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
So what is real in that? What is true in that?
Shainberg
Sir, what do you mean?
Krishnamurti
Real in the sense, actual, actual.
Shainberg
Well, that is a good question. What is actual?
Krishnamurti
Wait, wait, wait, it's so simple. What is actual in that? Your training.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Your knowledge.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Your daily operation.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
That's all. The rest is a conclusion.
Bohm
But what is the rest?
Krishnamurti
The rest: I am very much better than somebody else.
Bohm
Or else this thing is going to keep me occupied in a good way.
Krishnamurti
A good way. I will never be lonely.
Shainberg
Right. I know about what is going to happen because I have this knowledge.
Krishnamurti
Yes. So?
Bohm
Well, that is part of it.
Krishnamurti
Of course, much more.
Shainberg
Yes, go ahead. I want to hear what you have to say.
Bohm
But isn't there also a certain fear that if I don't have this then things will be pretty bad?
Krishnamurti
Of course, of course.
Shainberg
Right. Okay.
Bohm
And that fear seems to spur on…
Krishnamurti
Of course. And if the patients don't turn up?
Bohm
Then I have no money; fear.
Krishnamurti
Fear.
Shainberg
No activity.
Krishnamurti
So loneliness. Back.
Shainberg
Back again. Right.
Krishnamurti
So be occupied.
Shainberg
Be occupied doing this, completing this concept. Okay? Okay.
Krishnamurti
Be occupied.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Now:
Shainberg
It is very important. Do you realise how important that is to people, all of us, all people, to be occupied?
Krishnamurti
Of course, sir.
Shainberg
Do you get the meat of that?
Krishnamurti
Of course.
Shainberg
How important it is to people to be occupied. I can see them running around.
Krishnamurti
Sir, a housewife is occupied.
Bohm
Exactly.
Krishnamurti
Remove that occupation, she says, please…
Bohm
…what shall I do?
Shainberg
We have that as a fact. Since we put electrical equipment into the houses the women are going crazy, they have got nothing to do with their time.
Krishnamurti
But, no. The result of this, neglect of their children. Don't talk to me about it!
Shainberg
[Laughs] Right. Okay. Let's go on. Now we have got this fact, occupied.
Krishnamurti
Occupied. Now is this occupation an abstraction, or actuality?
Shainberg
Now this is an actuality.
Krishnamurti
Which?
Shainberg
Actuality. I am actually occupied.
Krishnamurti
No.
Bohm
What is it?
Krishnamurti
You are actually occupied.
Shainberg
Yes.
Krishnamurti
Daily.
Shainberg
Daily.
Bohm
Well, what do you really mean by occupied? Do you see, this is what…
Shainberg
What do you mean?
Bohm
Well, I can say I am actually doing all the operations. That is clear. I mean I am seeing patients as the doctor.
Shainberg
You are going to do your thing.
Bohm
I am doing my thing, getting my reward and so on. And 'occupied' it seems to me has a psychological meaning, further than that, that my mind is in that thing in a relatively harmonious way. There was something I saw on television once of a woman who was highly disturbed and it showed on the encephalograph, but when she was occupied doing her arithmetic sums, the encephalograph went beautifully smooth. She stopped doing the sums and it went all over the place. Do you see, therefore, she had to keep on doing something to keep the brain working right.
Krishnamurti
Which means what?
Shainberg
Go ahead.
Bohm
Well, what does it mean?
Krishnamurti
A mechanical process.
Shainberg
That's right.
Bohm
It seems the brain starts jumping all over the place unless it has this thing.
Krishnamurti
A constant…
Bohm
…content.
Krishnamurti
So you have reduced yourself to a machine.
Shainberg
Don't say it! [Laughter] No, it's not fair. But it is true. I have, I mean, I feel there is a mechanical…
Krishnamurti
Responses.
Shainberg
Oh yes, commitment.
Krishnamurti
Of course.
Bohm
But why does the brain begin to go so wild when it is not occupied?
Shainberg
That's right.
Bohm
The brain begins to jump around wildly when it is not occupied, you see. That seems to be a common experience.
Krishnamurti
Because in occupation there is security.
Bohm
There is order.
Krishnamurti
Order.
Shainberg
In occupation there is a kind of mechanical order.
Krishnamurti
Mechanical order.
Bohm
Right. So we feel our security really means we want order. Is that right?
Krishnamurti
That's it.
Bohm
We want order inside the brain.
Shainberg
That's right.
Bohm
We want to be able to project order into the future, for ever.
Krishnamurti
That's right.
Shainberg
That's right. But would you say that you can get it by mechanical order?
Bohm
Then we get dissatisfied with it, you see, you say, “I am getting sick, bored with it, I am sick of this mechanical life, I want something more interesting.”
Krishnamurti
That is where the gurus come in! [Laughter]
Bohm
Then the thing goes wild again. Do you see the mechanical order won't satisfy it because it works for a little while.
Shainberg
I don't like the way something is slipping in there. You say that we are going like from one thing to another. I am looking for satisfaction and then I am not satisfied.
Bohm
I am looking for some regular order which is good, do you see. And I think that by my job as a doctor I am getting it.
Shainberg
Yes.
Bohm
But after a while I begin to feel it is too repetitious, I am getting bored.
Shainberg
Okay. But suppose that doesn't happen. Suppose some people become satisfied with their job?
Bohm
Well, they don't really. I mean then they become dull, you see.
Krishnamurti
Quite. Mechanical; so mechanical they don't… and you stop that mechanism, the brain goes wild.
Shainberg
That's right.
Bohm
Right. So they may feel they are a bit dull and they would like some entertainment, or something more interesting and exciting. And therefore there is a contradiction, there is conflict and confusion in the whole thing. Well, take this woman who could always get everything right by doing arithmetical sums, but we can't keep on doing arithmetical sums! [Laughter] I mean somewhere she has got to stop doing these arithmetical sums.
Shainberg
Right.
Bohm
Then her brain will go wild again.
Krishnamurti
Sir, he is asking what is disturbing him. He feels he hasn't put his teeth into it. What is disturbing him?
Shainberg
You are right.
Krishnamurti
What is disturbing you?
Shainberg
Well, it is this feeling that you see people will say that…
Krishnamurti
No, you say, you.
Shainberg
I will say, let's say I can get this order, I can get this mechanical order, and I can.
Krishnamurti
Yes, you can.
Shainberg
From occupying myself in something I like.
Krishnamurti
Go on. Proceed.
Shainberg
I can do it. I mean I can do it, I can do something I like and it gets boring, let's say, or it might get repetitious, but then I will find new parts of it. And then I'll do that some more because that gives me a pleasure, you see. I mean I get a satisfaction out of it.
Bohm
Right.
Shainberg
So I keep doing more of that. It is like an accumulative process.
Krishnamurti
No, you move from one mechanical process…
Shainberg
Right, right.
Krishnamurti
…get bored with it, and move to another mechanical process…
Shainberg
That's right.
Krishnamurti
…get bored with it and keep going.
Shainberg
That's right. That's it.
Krishnamurti
And you call that living!
Shainberg
That is what I call living.
Bohm
I see that the trouble in it, even if I accept all that, the trouble is that I now try to be sure that I can keep on doing this, because I can always anticipate a future when I won't be able to do it. You see? I will be a bit too old for the job, or else I'll fail. I'll lose the job, or something. In other words, I still have insecurity in that order.
Krishnamurti
Essentially, essentially it is mechanical disorder.
Shainberg
Masking itself as order.
Krishnamurti
Order. Now, wait a minute. Do you see this? Or is it still an abstraction? Because you know, as Dr Bohm will tell you, idea means observation, the original meaning, the root meaning, observation. Do you observe this?
Shainberg
I see that, yes. I feel that… I think. Oh, no “I think.” I see that. I see what I see actually is, I see this, a movement that goes on doing this, and then question, very much like Piaget's theory. Right? In other words, there is assimilation, an accommodation and then there is seeing what doesn't fit and going on with it. And then there is more assimilation, and accommodation, and then going on with it. The psychologist, Piaget, the French psychologist, describes this as the enormity of human brains.
Krishnamurti
Yes, yes, yes.
Shainberg
You know this.
Krishnamurti
I don't have to read Piaget, I can observe it. [Laughs]
Bohm
Right. Then the point is, are you driven to this because you are frightened of the instability of the brain. Do you see? That would mean being occupied with this. And it seems then that is disorder. If you are doing something because you are trying to run away from instability of the brain, that is already disorder.
Shainberg
Yes, yes.
Bohm
In other words, that will merely be masking disorder.
Shainberg
Yes. Well, then you are suggesting that this is being the natural disorder of the brain. Are you suggesting a natural disorder?
Bohm
No, I am saying that the brain seems to be disordered. This seems to be a fact. Right? That the brain without occupation goes, tends to go, into disorder.
Shainberg
Without the mechanics we get this. That is what we know, without the mechanics.
Krishnamurti
So that is frightened of it.
Shainberg
Frightened.
Bohm
Well, it is dangerous actually because one feels it is dangerous if it keeps doing this because of what is going to happen.
Krishnamurti
Of course, it is dangerous.
Bohm
I mean I may do all sorts of crazy things.
Krishnamurti
Yes. All the neurotics, you know all that business.
Bohm
In other words, I feel that the main danger comes from within, you see.
Krishnamurti
Absolutely. Now, if, when you see it, observe it, there is action which is not fragmented.
Bohm
You see, I see that one can feel that you do not know whether this disorder can stop. In other words if you were sure that it could stop, that religion, that god will take care of it, or something, then you will have security.
Krishnamurti
Quite.
Bohm
That god will give you eternal bliss.
Shainberg
Then you don't feel that anything… you don't feel that you can depend on anything.
Bohm
Nothing can control that disorder. You see that this really seems to be the thing that there is nothing that can control that disorder. You may take pills, or do various things, but it is always there in the background.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Quite right.
Bohm
I don't know whether we should say, one question is, why do we have this disorder, you see? If it were built into the structure of the brain, seeing this is human nature, then there would be no way out.
Krishnamurti
No, sir. I think the disorder arises, doesn't it, first when there are mechanical processes going on. And in that mechanical process the brain feels secure, and when that mechanical process is disturbed it becomes insecure.
Shainberg
Then it does it again.
Krishnamurti
Again, and again, and again, and again.
Shainberg
It never stays with that insecurity.
Krishnamurti
No, no. When it perceives this process it is still mechanical, and therefore disorder.
Bohm
The question is: why does the brain get caught in mechanism? You see. In other words, it seems in the situation the brain gets caught in mechanical process.
Krishnamurti
Because it is the safest, the most secure way of living.
Bohm
Well, it appears that way. But it is actually very…
Krishnamurti
Not, appears. It is so for the time being.
Bohm
For the time being, but in the long run it is not.
Krishnamurti
Ah, in the long run…
Shainberg
Are you saying we are time bound, are you saying we are conditioned to be time bound?
Krishnamurti
No. Conditioned to be time bound: conditioned by our tradition, by our education, by the culture we live in and so on and so on, to operate mechanically.
Shainberg
We take the easy way.
Krishnamurti
The easy way.
Bohm
But it is also a kind of mistake to say, let's say, in the beginning the mechanical way shows signs of being safer, and at the beginning the brain makes a mistake let's say, and says, “This is safer,” but then somehow it fails to be able to see that it has made a mistake, it holds to this mistake. In the beginning you might call it an innocent mistake to say, “This look safer and I will follow it.” But then after a while you are getting evidence that it is not so safe, but the brain begins to reject it, keep away from it.
Shainberg
Well, I think you could raise the issue whether there aren't certain given facts in child rearing. I mean when the mother feels the baby is crying and she jams a nipple in its mouth, that is teaching the baby that you shut up and take the easy way out.
Krishnamurti
No, poor baby. [Laughs]
Bohm
Well there is a lot of conditioning.
Krishnamurti
Well, that is only the mothers who don't want babies when they jam in the nipples. Don't, no, don't say that.
Bohm
Well I meant that is part of the conditioning that explains how it is propagated. But you see it still doesn't explain why the brain doesn't see at some stage that it is wrong.
Shainberg
Why doesn't it see at some stage that it is wrong?
Bohm
In other words, it continues in this mechanical process rather than seeing that it is wrong.
Krishnamurti
You are asking: why doesn't it see that this mechanical process is essentially disorder.
Bohm
It is essentially disorder and dangerous.
Krishnamurti
Dangerous.
Bohm
Its security is totally delusory.
Shainberg
Why isn't there some sort of feedback? In other words, I do something and it comes out wrong. At some point I ought to realise that. Why don't I realise? I should have seen my life is mechanical.
Krishnamurti
Now wait. You see it?
Shainberg
But I don't.
Krishnamurti
Wait. Why is it mechanical?
Shainberg
Well, it is mechanical because it goes like this: it is all action and reaction.
Krishnamurti
Why is it mechanical?
Shainberg
It is repetitious.
Krishnamurti
Which is mechanical.
Shainberg
Which is mechanical. I want it to be easy. That is also mechanical. I want it to be easy. I feel that that gives me the most security, to keep it mechanical. I get a boundary. I know it is like you say I have the house, I have got my mechanical life, that gives me security, it is mechanical because it is repetitious.
Krishnamurti
But you haven't answered my question.
Shainberg
I know I haven't! It is mechanical. I am not sure what your question is. Your question is why…
Krishnamurti
…has it become mechanical.
Shainberg
Why.
Bohm
Why does it remain mechanical?
Krishnamurti
Why does it become and remain mechanical?
Shainberg
I think it remains mechanical, it is the thing we began with.
Krishnamurti
No, pursue it. Why does it remain mechanical?
Shainberg
I don't see it is mechanical.
Krishnamurti
What has caused us to accept this mechanical process, way of living?
Shainberg
I am not sure I can answer that. The feel of it is that I would see the insecurity, I would see.
Krishnamurti
No, look: wouldn't you be frightened if there was no…
Shainberg
I would see the uncertainty.
Krishnamurti
No, no. If the mechanical process of life that one lives suddenly stopped, wouldn't you be frightened?
Shainberg
Yes.
Bohm
Wouldn't there be some genuine danger?
Krishnamurti
That, of course. There is a danger that things might…
Bohm
…go to pieces.
Krishnamurti
…go to pieces.
Shainberg
It is deeper than that.
Krishnamurti
Wait! Find out, come on.
Shainberg
It is not just that there is a genuine danger that I would be frightened. It feels like that things take on a terribly moment-by moment effect.
Krishnamurti
No, sir. Look: would total order give it complete security? Wouldn't it? Total order.
Shainberg
Yes.
Krishnamurti
The brain wants total order.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Otherwise it can't function properly. Therefore it accepts the mechanical, and hoping it won't lead to disaster.
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
Hoping it will find order in that.
Bohm
Could you say that perhaps in the beginning the brain accepted this just simply not knowing that this mechanism would bring disorder and it just went into it in an innocent state?
Krishnamurti
Yes, caught in a trap.
Bohm
Yes, but then later it is caught in a trap, you see. And somehow it maintains this disorder, it doesn't want to get out of it.
Krishnamurti
Because it is frightened of greater disorder.
Bohm
Yes. It says, all that I've built up may go to pieces. In other words, I am not in the same situation as when I first went in the trap because now I have built up a great structure. I think that structure will go to pieces.
Shainberg
That's right. I heard one man—I nearly jumped out of my seat—I heard one may say to another, to one of his colleagues, he says, 'I have just published my thirteenth book'. He said it just like that! [Laughter] The way he said it was deadly.
Krishnamurti
Yes, but what I am trying to get at is, the brain needs this order, otherwise it can't function. It finds order in mechanical process because it is trained from childhood; do as you are told, etc., etc., etc. There is a conditioning going on right away: to live a mechanical life.
Shainberg
Right.
Bohm
As also the fear induced of giving up this mechanism at the same time.
Krishnamurti
Of course, of course.
Bohm
I mean that you are thinking all the time that without this everything will go to pieces, including especially the brain.
Krishnamurti
Brain, yes, so they break from this mechanical business and join communities, you know, all the process, which is still mechanical.
Shainberg
Right, right.
Krishnamurti
Which means the brain must have order. And finds order in a mechanical way. Now do I see, do you see actually the mechanical way of living leads to disorder? Which is, tradition. If I live entirely in the past, which is very orderly, I think it is very orderly, and what takes place? I am already dead and I can't meet anything.
Shainberg
I am repeating myself always, right.
Krishnamurti
So please don't disturb my tradition! The communists say that, the Catholics say that—you follow?—the same thing. And every human being says, 'Please, I have found something which gives me order; a belief, a hope, this, or that; and leave me alone.'
Shainberg
Right.
Krishnamurti
And life isn't going to leave them alone. So he gets frightened and establishes another mechanical habit. Now do you see this whole thing? And therefore an instant action breaking it all away and therefore order. The brain that says, at last I have an order which is absolutely indestructible.
Bohm
Well, I think you see, it doesn't follow from what you said that this will happen.
Krishnamurti
Of course.
Bohm
In other words, you are saying this.
Krishnamurti
I am saying it.
Bohm
I mean but it doesn't follow logically.
Krishnamurti
It will follow logically if you go into it.
Bohm
If we go into it. Can we reach a point where it really follows necessarily?
Krishnamurti
I think we can only go into it if you perceive the mechanical security which the brain has developed, attached and cultivated.
Shainberg
Can I share with you something, that as you are talking I find myself, I see it in a certain way though, I see it like this—don't get impatient with me too quickly! But I see it this way: it is like I can see the mechanicalness. Right? And I see that I see, and I was flashing through my mind various kinds of interchanges between people. And the way they talk, they way I talk to them at a party, at a cocktail party, and it is all about what happened before.
Krishnamurti
Quite, quite.
Shainberg
You can see them telling you who they are, in terms of their past.
Krishnamurti
What they will be.
Shainberg
What they will be. This guy I just described to you, who said, “I have published my thirteenth book,” he said it like that. It is very important that I get that information, see. And this I see. And I see this elaborate structure. This guy has got in his head that I am going to think this about him, and then he is going to go to his university and he is going to be thought that. He is always living like that and the whole structure is elaborate. Right?
Krishnamurti
Are you doing that?
Shainberg
[Laughs] When did you stop beating your wife! Of course I am doing it. I am doing it right now, I am seeing the structure right now, all the time.
Krishnamurti
But do you see that we were saying yesterday, fragmentary action is mechanical action.
Shainberg
That's right. It is there, Krishnaji. It is there, that's the way we are.
Krishnamurti
No, sir, and therefore political action can never solve any problems, human problems; or the scientist, as a fragment.
Shainberg
But do you realise what you are saying? Let us really look at what you are saying. This is the way it is. This is the way life is.
Krishnamurti
That's right.
Shainberg
Right? This is the way it is. Years and years and years.
Krishnamurti
Therefore, why don't you change it?
Shainberg
Change it. That's right. But this is the way it is. We live in terms of our structures. We live in terms of our history. We live in terms of our mechanics. We live in terms of our form. This is the way we live.
Krishnamurti
Which means, as we were saying at Ojai, when the past meets the present and ends there, there is a totally different thing takes place.
Shainberg
Yes. But the past doesn't meet the present so often.
Krishnamurti
I mean it is taking place now.
Shainberg
Now it's coming, right now. Right. We are seeing it now.
Krishnamurti
Therefore can you stop there?
Shainberg
We must see it totally.
Krishnamurti
No. The fact, simple fact: the past meets the present. That is a fact.
Bohm
Let us see, how does the past meet the present? Let us go into that.
Krishnamurti
We have got four minutes.
Shainberg
How do you say the past meets the present? We have got two minutes now! [Laughs]
Bohm
Well, I think just briefly that the past meeting the present stops, that the past is generally active in the present towards the future. Now when the past meets the present then the past stops acting. And what it means is that thought stops acting so that order comes about.
Shainberg
Do you think that the past meets the present, or the present meets the past?
Krishnamurti
No. How do you meet me?
Shainberg
I meet you in the present.
Krishnamurti
No. How do you meet me? With all the memories, all the images, the reputation, the words, the pictures, the symbol, all that, with that which is the past, you meet me now.
Shainberg
That's right. That's right. I come to you with a…
Krishnamurti
No, no. The past is meeting the present.
Bohm
Aren't you saying…
Shainberg
That's right, go ahead.
Bohm
That the past should stop meeting the present?
Shainberg
No. He is not saying that. You can't say that.
Krishnamurti
I am saying something, which is…
Shainberg
Let him say it.
Krishnamurti
What I am trying to say is that the past meets the present.
Shainberg
And then?
Krishnamurti
Can the past end there? Not move forward.
Shainberg
Can it? But is that a right question? Or is it, what is the past meeting the present? What is that action?
Krishnamurti
I meet you with a picture.
Shainberg
Why should I stop?
Krishnamurti
I will show it to you. I meet you with the past, my memories, but you might have changed all that in the meantime. So I never meet you. I meet you with the past.
Shainberg
Right. That is fact.
Krishnamurti
That is a fact. Now if I don't have that movement going on…
Shainberg
But I do.
Krishnamurti
Of course you do. But I say that is disorder. I can't meet you there.
Shainberg
Right. How do you know that?
Krishnamurti
I only know… I don't know it. I only know the fact that when the past meets the present and continues, it is one of the factors of time, movement, bondage, all the fear, and so on. If, when there is the past meeting the present, and says yes, I am fully aware of this, completely aware of this movement, then it stops. Then I meet you as though for the first time, there is something fresh, it is like a new flower coming out.
Shainberg
Yes, I understand.
Krishnamurti
I think we will go on tomorrow. We haven't really tackled the root of all this, the root, the cause or the root of all this disturbance, this turmoil, travail, anxiety—you follow?
Bohm
Why should the brain be in this wild disorder?
Krishnamurti
I know, wild. You, who are a doctor, an analyst and all the rest of it, you have to ask that fundamental question—why? Why do human beings live this way?
Shainberg
Right. Why do they? I ask that all the time. Why are human beings sick?
Krishnamurti
Time. [Laughter]
Bohm
Right.
Shainberg
Double-edged…